• M

  mendel -3 years ago

  If ואהבת ....כמוך ....ואידך זיל גמור how does one logically get to chukim. This is not a question on the shiur - rather one that came to mind listening. 
  I think the answer lies later in the shiur but I don’t see it with clarity. 
  חוקה חקקתי ........להרהר אחריה So why did King Solomon try to figure it out and why do we have commentary on the Red Hiefer. 
  This was possibly answered later - as I understand it there are parallel paths but ultimately we have to believe we do not have to understand- please advise 
  The problem is that every cult is premised on this - so how do we draw the distinction if intellect need not enter the equation and if it does we are back to the question. 
  I need some guidance- really - but in light of the question - my request is funny  when can we talk 
  And then you asked my question but I need help with the answer. 
  רצון למעלה מין השכל Does it mean it is above, more powerful, or deeper. I think many times it is below in terms of logical analysis. Every compulsive or impulsive act seems to indicate that will is beneath logic, while will is more powerful. Might it be more accurate to say that will is overarching? 

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  It was said that a therapist "hits the spot" when the patient

  Stops giving reasons and rationalizations. The layers of intellectual  and logical wrapping has been stripped and pure rotzon is exposed.  Presumably then, once true rotzon, the true hidden driving force is revealed, healing can begin.  It can't begin with defensive logic,  reasons,  justifications  and terutzim.

   And this mirrors Hashem who we say had pure rotzon to create the world, whose hidden rotzon is behind both mitzvos our seychel cam understand and those seychel can't grasp.  Supposedly He allowed us to try to understand the surface only of part of  the  mitzvos.  But ultimately, all mitzvos come from his rotzon even those somewhat understandable by our logic and seychel.  

    I see a problem here when Hashem's rotzon is compared to the therapist's patient's rotzon. 

    Hashem is all good. Even what appears to us to be bad will be shown ultimately to be good.  Its just that sometimes the good is covered by what appears to be bad. 

    Let's say Hitler, ym"S was by his therapist. The therapist digs and digs, or the patient digs on his own. Ultimately the logic and rationalizations and terutzim and reasons are stripped away and the core rotzon comes out.  He may have said that yidden control the money, deny xianity,  control this or that, own all the property etc as terutzim.  Then they're stripped away and his core pure rotzon comes out. 

  He simply says "I hate yidden.  Period".

  What does the therapist then do? 

   Some core humam desires, core rotzon and will are positive, are neutral,  are innocuous, etc. And once the core rotzon is revealed true therapy can begin. 

  Once we know Hashem's core rotzon we realizw we must simply do whether or not we understand.  

   But in the case of people, especially very sick people,  the core rotzon can easily be bad, even evil. What then? 

   What to do when such evil rotzon is revealed. Sure the therapist and the patient have stripped away false terutzim,  but they have revealed a bigger, badder monster.  

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• S

  Sam -3 years ago

  Mitzvos are beyond our understanding

  If so then why does the Torah write reasons for most of the mitzvos? 

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  Perhaps a simplistic way of summing it up, there are 3 hierarchical approaches:

  #1. We follow those mitzvos that are susceptible to logic and seychel and do those only. Anything beyond seychel we don't believe and don't do. We can climb up the ladder only so far and not further.

  #2  We understand that our intellect.is limited so we believe and do those mitzvos susceptible to logic  but we ALSO realize as honest people that there are things, matters and mitzvos that are NOT susceptible to logic so we do those also based on pure faith and set aside the need for a logical understanding 

  #3. We realize that ALL mitzvos and indedc EVERYTHING comes from the rotzon Hashem, but can be subdivided into 2 categories, one the matters and mitzvos we can understand and two, those which we can't. I.e. both categories come from the same rotzon. 

  Like the child that understands that he must obey his parent precisely because it is the parents will, whether or not the order is understandable  to the child. 

  Notice some understand more, some less but if we do it because that's His will it doesn't matter that we understand.  (Stillwell are also commanded to.try to understand as much as possible) 

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  • SG

    Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

    I would add, perhaps, a fourth approach,, below #1 above: those who will only do the logical mitzvos they agree with and not the mitzvos, even though logical, that they don't agree with! (and even more will do aveitahs like the yidden who reversed their bris so as to participate in greek sports) ) This category doesn't evdn make into the maamer and certainly didn't bother the Greeks! 

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  What's the difference, if any,, between

  A parent saying to a child "because I'm the parent and I said so" in response to the child asking why he has to do something and 

  Suprarational mitzvos.

  Both are the unexplained and perhaps unexplainable rotzon of the parent and Hashem 

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  We yidden should not be limited to the seycheldik parts and mitzvos of Torah, yet

  Ironically, for some of us bts, it was the logical proofs of the veracity of  Torah, e.g. the Kumari and other proofs of Mattan Torah, that led us to yiddishkeit. 

  But. After accepting the veracity of Torah by logical seycheldik proofs, eventually we come to realize that seychel and logic is insufficient and incomplete.  Chasidus especially shows this. 

  Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that there isn't much seychel per se in chassidus.  

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• A

  Aharon -3 years ago

  I once asked Reb Berish Horowitz, z'l, the oldest son of the Spinka Rebbe, Reb Hershele, z'l a philosophical question one time about why there's so much war in the world or something along those lines.      He chuckled and replied:  "Aharon, i've told you before and i'll tell you again.  Go back to the foundation that all the great tzaddikim go to.  It says in ashrei "v'ligdulaso ain cheker" - "to Hashem's greatness there is no investigation".    We can't understand everything cuz we are finite and H" is infinite.  So remember what the great tzadikim rely on - that we were given a Torah and we have mitzvos to do and when you get that down really good then you will have free time to think about these other things.

  This vort has been very good and reassuring and supportive for me.  I like it very much.  It seems like a real pashut/simple answer yet so powerful.   How does this fit in with what we are learning in this maimer?

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  The Greeks could tolerate supranational mitzvos per se but not YOUR supranational mitzvos

  I.e. the concept of  a Deity ordering such mitzvos bothered them. 

  But, they had their own panoply of G-ds. 

  The only difference is quantity of Deities,  not the fact or belief in one. 

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• S

  Sara -3 years ago

  So what you're saying is

  that at the end of the day, sechel doesn't really matter, regardless of the fact that logic and analysis is so much stressed and appreciated in Judaism

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  • SG

    Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

    Perhaps its more accurate to say that we must believe in that which is subject to and capable of logical analysis AND ALSO  believe in and perform that part of Torah which is beyond iogic and not susceptible to logical proof

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    • S

      Sara -3 years ago

      Maybe. And I'm not discounting logic, but I think that what the Rebbe might be saying is that the true connection to GD relies less on sechel or logical proof than it does on an internal knowledge and awareness that resides deep within the person.

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• SG

  Sarah Goldberg -3 years ago

  The logic and logical mitzvos of Torah didn't bother the Greeks

  We see that today many yidden, having been misled by those that were also misled about the divine source and purpose of  Torah,  also believe in and perform the logical parts of Torah while denigrating and ignoring the  dupra-rational parts. .

    How is this different from the Greeks?

  The Greeks were an external group that sought to enforce their philosophy on us. Today, these yidden are an internal source that seek to enforce their philosophy. And they are not a minority but a majority of yidden, albeit a shrinking group while Torah yidden are still a minority but a growing minority.  (See the Pew research studies). 

   In time by pure demographics the Torah yidden will become the majority especially when the halachic definition of  a  yid is applied.

   There was a Jewish professor at Brown who wrote about 50 books on Judaism,, a real scholar whose scholarship was accurate, (where's yours?) though  he wasn't Shomer Shabbos. He was disappointed when he was shunned by the frum world.

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• MS

  Mayer Stark -3 years ago

  Mara mekimois of rashbam in your drasha of Parshas Vayishlach greatness with fear

  Please tell me where is this Rashbam from the Drasha you said with the title scene, please let me know, Mayet Stark 347-302-3077. Thank you very much. I love your Droshois.

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  • Anonymous -3 years ago

    Which shiur? please give link

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Chassidus: Maamar V'Al Hanisim 5729 #1

Rabbi YY Jacobson

• December 7, 2020
• |
• 21 Kislev 5781
• |
• 913 views

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