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The Talmudic Sages #1: Elisah Ben Avuyah

From the Orchard to the Abyss

1 hr 11 min

Class Summary:

Series: The Talmudic Sages #1. From the Orchard to the Abyss -- The Story of Elisah Ben Avuyah

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  • Z

    zalman -10 years ago

    Thank You
    I greatly enjoyed listening to the shiur. I especially enjoyed how you used the different primary sources to paint a realistic picture of Elisha. עלה והצלח.

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: Thank You
      Zalman,



      Thank you for your kind words. The best has yet come....

      Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

  • S

    Sholom -10 years ago

    Great shiur, practical message?
    Thank you Rabbi Dr Zigelboum for a very elightening, enriching, informative and clear shiur.

    You provided all the sourced stories shaping a real-life picture of Acher's lifestory delivering the information in certain contexts forming and portraying a clear picute, whilst at the same time not making your own assumptions and your own takes, allowing the listener to see the picture of Acher for themselves.

    As a rabbi, therapist, counselor  what is the practical message one can take from this corrupted, self-justified individual's life, in our own life choices, self-education and in educating our children?

    Thank you

    Sholom




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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: Great shiur, practical message?





      Sholom,


       


      Thanks for your warm words of encouragement.


      As you stated in your comment , I left it for the the listener to to draw his own conclusions.


       


      Since you crowned me with three different hats ( Rabbi , Dr, and a therapist) I will tell you that most likely a Rabbi and a therapist will draw from it different lessons.


       


      The therapist point of view would be as I wrote above to tzemach, אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו" no one can really know how he will cross the white waters until he is there facing the challenge and have to prove himself. What I think of him as a therapist is completely irrelevant, A good therapist is some one who can ( at least temporarily)  suspend his own set of values and leave enough room for the client's values to come up on the surface.


       


      As a Rabbi, I think the Rabbi would say " stay away from questions challenging G-D's ways, such as the incident with the tong of רבי חוצפית המתורגמן.  Dont ask questions and raise issues that will put your faith to the ultimate test , like אלישע did. See מסכת חגיגה with his visit to the Orchard and what he saw with מלאך מטטר-ן. I did not talk about it in the Shiur due to time limitation.




      This issue of Asking questions on G-D's ways , will be dealt with on the Shiur of Rabbi Akiva, Comin up soon IY"H.


       


      I hope you are satisfy with this answer.  

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  • PHI

    Piki Hecht, Iowa -10 years ago

    amazing!
    amazing! נהננו מאד, עלה והצלח

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: amazing!
      יישר כוח לכם, תודה רבה.

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  • R

    rivka -10 years ago

    great
    thank you - that was really great!!

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: great
      Rivka,



      Thank you . I hope you will follow the othet Shiurim as well. It will only get better with G-D's help.

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  • ML

    Meira L. -10 years ago

    B"H
    Thank you very much for your Shaur, thank you for your Hebrew appreciation, that is deeply inspiring to learn Torah in closer  proximity to original.

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: B"H
      Meira,

      Thnaks for your  words of encouragment.



      I am happy you appreciate the Hebrew in the Shiur, I will keep it in mind for my next Shiurim. 

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  • EE

    Eli Edery -10 years ago

    Yashar Koach

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: Yashar Koach
      Thank you very much Eli,

      I hope you will keep with the other Shiurim as well. A new one about Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos was just posted last night.

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  • T

    Tzemach -10 years ago

    thank you for the class
    it truly was a very nice class, thank you so much. acording the what you said we can not blame Elisha Ben Avuya for being what he was, can we? 

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    • A

      Anonymous -10 years ago

      Re: thank you for the class
      Tzemach,



      Thank you very much for your compliment on the Shiur. Sorry for the delay in my response, I was away from my computer and with very limited accses to internet service.



      About your question " if we can blame Elisha or not".



      I dont think it is a matter of blaming him or not. I have painted a picture of an individual who plunged down from the peak of קדושה to the lowest of the low on the opposite side. He had his reasons as we learned, However, as our sages told us  " אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו"  non of us can guarantee that we would do better than him if we were in his place at his times in his shoes. Cant know untill you are faced with the same set of circumstances and chalanges. However , deffinetly , he is not a charachter to follow in his foot steps and חזל dinounced him.

      While  at the same time , made sure that 2000 years later we still know about him, and even learn his משנה few times evey summer, again and again. Obviousely, there is still a lesson to be learn even from this individual. 

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Mordechy Zigelboum

  • July 2, 2013
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  • 24 Tamuz 5773
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  • 392 views
Dedicated in loving memory of Rabbi Avraham Eliezer ben RabbiYosef Shmuel Zigelboum. And Rabbi Yosef ben Rabbi Moshe Yehuda Goldstein.

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