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When Love Becomes Hate

The Tragic Story of Timnah, Amalek and King Manasseh

1 hr 9 min

Class Summary:

When Love Becomes Hate- The Tragic Story of Timnah, Amalek and King Manasseh

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  • S

    sheena -8 years ago

    This shiur was brilliant! loved it! Thank you!!

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  • B

    bourchn -8 years ago

    Todah for the video. It seems like 'Menasseh' was a 'Reform' Jew...no? He knows better than G-d Alm-ty.

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  • CD

    Chaim D -10 years ago

    Achos Lotan Timna
    Thank you so much for this shiur. I've been repeating it all week. Wonderful. 



    Every year when we read this parsha I am reminded....A good friend of my family in Detroit had yechidus with the Rebbe in the 60's, I believe, and one of the things he asked the Rebbe was for a brocha for hatzlacha in teaching and the Rebbe told him to tell stories. He looked at the Rebbe and asked "But Rebbe. Its bittul Torah!?" and the Rebbe got a serious look on his face and told him "VaAchos Loitan Timna." He wasnt sure what the Rebbe meant so the Rebbe explained that if the Torah can tell stories, so should you. He has been a master story teller for as long as I've known him and is still very well respected for his teaching in general but especially for his stories.

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  • N

    Naomi -10 years ago

    This explains a lot! II


    B"H


     


    Rabbi Jacobson,



    This shiur answers another question that have been bothering me for a long time:


     


    3. Why do some of my children fight with each other so much? I keep telling each of them to disregard what is annoying about the other and just go on with life, but they don't seem to be able to do that. Now I see why, to some extent.



    Here a few of my thoughts on these topics:



    a. For some reason, Hashem had to put into the world some children with super-charged yetzer horas. What better parents could these children have than righteous parents like King Chizkiyohu, and Elifaz & Timna. If Menashe had been born to wicked parents, he might have been much worse! However, it is still a profound mystery why Hashem wanted to put such wicked people into the world -- people who would drag down so many others with themselves. 



    b. Chazal say that King Chizkiyohu would have been Moshiach if he had sung shira after the miraculous victory over Sancheriv. When I read this statement, I think -- oh, what a shame, what a missed opportunity! If only he had done it! But, considering what you said in your shiur, it really seems impossible for Chizkiyohu to have sung shira. A shira is an expression of admiration of the perfection of Hashem's ways (to the extent that we can understand them). For a righteous person to have an extremely wicked child, despite his utmost efforts to educate him properly, seems so hurtful. How could someone sing shira while continually experiencing this horrible situation 24/7 for many years? Yes, a person could accept it and say "gam zu letova", but to sing shira about it -- I don't think that is possible to do in the golus era.


     


    Another question I have been wondering for a long time -- perhaps you can address this in a shiur:


    Why is Milkah, the wife of Nachor, mentioned so many times in Sefer Beraishis? The Chumash does not say anything about her, so why did she merit to have her name mentioned so many times (especially considering that women's names are not often mentioned in the Torah)?


     


    Thank you.


     

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  • N

    Naomi -10 years ago

    This explains a lot!
    Rabbi Jacobson,



    This shuir answers two questions that have been bothering me for a long time:



    1. Amalek had such righteous parents -- Elifaz and Timna. Elifaz refused to kill Yaakov even though his father told him to do so, because he grew up under the influence of Yitzchok. Timna left a life of royalty to become a mere concubine to a descendant of Avrohom and Yitzchok. So why did they have such a wicked son as Amalek?



    2. Why did the righteous Kink Chizkiyohu have such a wicked son as Menashe, and even though Chizckiyou tried his utmost to have a good influence on his son, it didn't seem to help.



    Thank you so much for addressing these questions!


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  • M

    Marcelo -11 years ago

    agradecimiento
    Muchas gracias por estas conferencias semanales. En mi caso, tres parejas nos reunimos en mi casa semana tras semana para ver el video y analizar juntos el contenido.



     

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  • S

    sarah -11 years ago

    meeting
    If you dare- lol -it could be an interesting meeting...I appreciate it. I'll let him know.

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  • S

    sarah -11 years ago

    how to actualize the teachings?
    Hi -



    I have a  21 year old son who has so much anger and cynicism- he can't even hear us talk words of Torah and Chassidus at the Shabbos table without getting disgusted.He accuses us of parroting the words of the rabbis and not thinking for ourselves.He scoffs and ridicules and challenges. Yet He's immensely sensitive, complex and sharp and comes up with brilliant chidushim that are often twisted but provocative.The rebbes didnt know what to make of him in yeshiva but he was and is an extremely charismatic guy with a huge neshama. If he were to do teshuva he could be a real leader--but how, as his mother, do I help him? He needs a teacher who is not afraid of him and can meet his challenges head on...where do I find someone like that????

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    • A

      Anonymous -11 years ago

      Re: how to actualize the teachings?
      I would be thrilled to meet him if he so wishes. My email: [email protected]

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  • M

    miriam -13 years ago

    q
    sunday morning i was teaching the video class you gave last year on love becoming hate. a question arose. what was the connection between menasha and the timna story. she couldn't accept who she was. but how did that relate to menasha? he had some blockage. we were confused

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  • Y

    YY -13 years ago

    answer to miriam
    Menashe struggled with idolatry from his youth. He could not accept his place in life as the eternal struggler. He interpreted his struggle as saying that idolatry is real.
    Similar mistake to Eisav.
    Some people must accept their place in the world as strugglers, as fighters, rather than as winners. See Tanya 27.

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  • L

    [email protected] -14 years ago

    iPhone
    If there any way to have audio lessons on iPhone? Pleasesend to [email protected]

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  • AH

    Ari Hirim -14 years ago

    Thank you
    Thank you for making all of these Shiurim available. They stimulate further discussion here.

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  • M

    moshe -14 years ago

    why did he reject timna
    why indeed did Avrohom reject Timna?... if he was always busy welcoming people in... if he took Hagar... why not Timna? Yitzchak I could possibly see but avrohom puzzles me. it seems to go against his personality to reject someone that wants in.

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  • Y

    YYJ -14 years ago

    answer
    1. She was a mamzeres (see rashi to pesukim). 2. She wanted to convert only for marriage. 3. Maharal says: she was royal and aristocrotic and he felt she would not have the submission and humility required by a convert.

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    • A

      Anonymous -12 years ago

      Re: answer
      1. She was a mamzeres (see rashi to pesukim). 2. She wanted to convert only for marriage. 3. Maharal says: She was royal and aristocratic, and he felt she would not have the submission and humility required by a convert who is embracing a completely new identity.

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  • YYC

    Y. Y. C. -14 years ago

    Yashar Koach
    A very appropriate message for this time of year, erev 19 kislev, this explains the unique relationship the missnagdim had with the Chassidic movement.

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  • MH

    Meir Hai -14 years ago

    question about Essav
    Can we say that this is the deeper explanation of the nikoud of the word "vayishakahu" in Vayishlach, that Esau kissed Jacob. Meaning, it is true that "essav sone leyaakov," as Rashi states in the name of Rabb Shimon bar Yochaei, Esau hates Jacob, but in a deep level (Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai is the author of the Zohar) "nashko behol libo" because on a deeper level he wanted to be like him?

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  • MBA

    Melech B&#39n Arieh -14 years ago

    Todah
    Awesome...I am speechless. Your insight in to human psyche is astounding and the ability to bring it down to laymans' is really apreciated.
    www.melechbnarieh.com

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  • JL

    Judy Lederman -14 years ago

    Incesting
    1 - It is my understanding that Timna was both Elifaz' mother and his concubine - and that Amalek came from a very twisted relationship.
    2 - Wasn't Menashe the son that King Chizkiyahu did NOT want to have and he got very sick and almost died, but was told by Yeshayahu that he had to get married in order to have children (including Menashe)?
    Why was Menashe zoche to get a Bas Kol when the rest of us daven and can't hear a word?

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  • G

    Gila -14 years ago

    a qustion
    I find something hard to understand: if love is a real love, it does not make sense that it would turn into hatred. I think only if the love is not true, then it could turn into hate. And maybe the reason the Avos rejected Timnah was because they saw her love was not totally sincere and was not truthful. And in reality if she truly respected and loved them, even if they rejected her she would not have become so utterly hateful. Since that was her essence, and she transmitted that to Amalek, then her love could not have been truthful. The fact that we have to stamp out Amalek is because that hatred is evil and has no basis of kedusha or truth to it....so the love of Amalek's mother could not have been truthful either. We should certainly not make Timnah look too good. After all, because of her the seed of Amalek exists in this world and has caused untold harm and cruelty to the Jewish people.

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  • TT

    To Tamir -14 years ago

    internalizing
    Tamir,



    When our Children see how Torah & Mitzvos are internalizing within us, this is one of the greatest ways to help our children internalize Yiddishkeit when they see that we are Alive we are excited children will Hashem's help live the same way. How to make it alive within us at this stage of our life? V'Atah Tzaveh Purim Katan?

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    • A

      Anonymous -12 years ago

      Re: internalizing
      How? By constant study of Torah, every day of our life; by sincere prayer; by challenging ourselves, working  on our personality traits, and also getting involved in helping others in some form. The most effective way of staying warm is by warming others. We also need real friends and authentic relationships in our lives which challenge us and empower us to grow. And every person needs a "rav," a mentor, a guide, with whom they are completely open.




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  • R

    ruth -14 years ago

    lech l'cha
    BS"D

    me too
    that's my favorite parsha
    i would appreciate it greatly
    [email protected]

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  • R

    ruth -14 years ago

    that's what i call a real psychology lesson
    BS"D

    v.powerful
    thank you.

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  • H

    Hana -14 years ago

    Question
    I enjoyed and appreciated your well crafted and delivered shiur last evening (as I sometimes do). Thank you for making this learning available to so many each week.

    Question based on the class of Vayishlach:
    yes, I understand that hate can develop from rejection or a desire to have qualities (or items) that another person has, but I do not think that all rejection (hate?) develops from those sources only.
    How do you explain the negative feelings someone develops, for example towards a Jewish way of life - when they had experienced love, enthusiasm, role models, and did well scholastically and socially?
    Obviously there may be other reasons for some to develop negative feelings.
    Another example is what we experience in our own communities -- 2 factions. It may not necessarily be rejection that causes an extreme love to turn to hate, but, for instance, the misuse and defamation a group may cause to something or someone that was intensely dear to others. The only rejection here is when that group has veered from the true intent and focus of the movement and reeks havoc in many ways as a result.

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    • A

      Anonymous -12 years ago

      Re: Question
      I agree with you. Thanks for sharing.

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  • C

    Carmen -14 years ago

    Destruction power of love!?

    … and what happens when Love is misdirected?
    Then normal development of cell stem might turn into cancer, adolescent's passion might lead to addiction, Isaac’s progeny might become Amalek, observant and circular Jews might pole apart, simple jealous might bring death...

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  • A

    Anonymous -14 years ago

    Question
    For Menashe to return to G-d he had to be tortured to death! But how do you convince someone to turn their hate for yiddishkeit into love in our day and age? What does it mean in practical implication to dig a tunnel to their unconscious, to the kiseh hakavod?



    And also, what if someone does not hate, but simply begins to become more lax in observance? How do you help them? You can't even pray to G-d, because G-d doesn't want to make someone love him. (Ha kol beyadei shamayim chuz miyirat shamayim.) Please help!



    And thank you so much again for amazing class.

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    • A

      Anonymous -12 years ago

      Re: Question
      The best way is through a personal example. When your life is saturated with love of people, love of G-d, love of life and love of Torah, you atomically influence others. When someone observes the spirit, the meaning, depth and majesty engendered by a life filled with Torah, real Torah, it is the most effective way of influencing them.



      Torah ought to allow us each day to experience transcendence of spirit over matter, selflessness over selfishness, truth over egotism. When people observe this it has a deep impact on them.


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  • D

    David -14 years ago

    Resonated
    Thank you very much for this shiur. It touched me deeply and its themes resonate with my personal struggle. I have a lot to think about. Thanks again.

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  • TG

    Tamir Goodman -14 years ago

    Quick Thought
    Thank Your Rabbi Jacobson, what an amazing Shiur! A thought I had after listening to the Shiur. Parents try so hard to teach their kids Yiddishkeit. However, sometimes if a child doesn’t seem to be internalizing the teachings a parent might get disappointed or even give up hope. This Shiur teaches us that like Chizkya we must try everything possible to try and teach our kids Yiddishkeit in a way that they could internalize it. Although Chizkya taught all of the children of Israel Torah,he still invested so much time and energy in his son. Even if we are busy with other things we must try as hard as possible to relate to our children and to know that even if it looks like were failing there is still hope. When Menashe finally did do Tshuvah it was because he remembered his father’s teachings. This story teaches us that at the end of the day our teachings won’t be forgotten by our kids and will inspire them throughout their lives. May we merit being positive role models and teachers for our children.
    Tamir

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  • B

    Ber -14 years ago

    Timnah and Menaseh



    לכאורה אפשר לומר בפשטות, שמנשה התכחש לעצם העובדא שיש צורך בגיור ויש צורך להתקבל אצל עם ישראל, ושזהו עם ייחודי שאין כמותו כפרש"י סנהדרין צט, ב שהם יר"ש, דהרי אצל מנשה כל המושג הזה לא קיים כלל, ואין שום משמעות לזה שלא קיבלו את תמנע. ואדרבה מגמתו של מנשה הי' החיבור בין אשור וירושלים, ובין ע"ז ועם ישראל, ההיפך בתכלית של כל מושג הגיור שרצתה תמנע. וכמובן שגם התכחש להאיסור של גזל שמצינו אצל ראובן. ולכן דרש בשני פסוקים אלה הגדות של דופי.





    אבל נהניתי מהרעיון הנוסף בהשיעור, שהחסרון של תמנע הי' שלא השלימה עם מצבה ותמיד היתה ממורמרת על זה שלא התקבלה. וענינו של ראובן הוא שכ"א יש לו מקום שלו, ואין לו לפשוט ידו בשל אחר (עיין מי השילוח בפ' בהר על יובל, שהכל שב לאחוזתו), וצ"ל שמח בחלקו. ועד"ז בנוגע למנשה: שהי' ע"ד ויתרוצצו, נמשך לע"ז בילדותו כמבואר בהגהות הב"ח ברכות יוד, א, אלא שתכליתו הוא לכבוש את יצרו ולהלחם עם הרע ולהיות שמח בחלקו ובגורלו (עיין תניא פכ"ז, ובלקו"ש ח"כ תולדות ע"ד ויגדלו הנערים), והוא לא קיבל את חלקו, כמו עשו, שהי' גם ישראל מומר, כדאיתא בקידושין יח, א, ותמורת זה שיקבל את חלקו, ויהי' שמח בתכליתו בחיים להלחם עם הרע, הנה חשב שמהותו האמיתית היא רע וכפירה, ונכנע לכחות הרע, ולא עוד, אלא שפיתח שנאה עצומה לקדושה, כי הי' לו משיכה לקדושה אבל לא הי' יכול להפנים זה בחייו, כי הרגיש שהוא שייך לרע, ותמורת זה שיהי' שמח בחלקו ויקבל את שליחותו בקדושה, שזה הי' קשה מאד בשבילו, הנה מרד נגד הקדושה, ושנא את הקדושה, אבל במהות ועצמות הי' גם תפקידו קדושה, וזה הי' במחתרת, וזהו ענין חתר מחתרת תחת כסה"כ. ויל"ע בכל זה. ותודה רבה


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  • O

    os -14 years ago

    amalek
    Isnt it that Mohahmed also wanted to convert and wasnt allowed and then turned against the jews?

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  • D

    Dovy -14 years ago

    Question
    i'm still unclear as to who exactly "Timna" was i.e. in relationship to Eliphaz:

    1. Was she his wife/"pilegesh" - as the passuk tells us???

    2. Or: Was she his mother as the Medrash quoted in source #5 seems to say?

    3. Or: Was she his daughter - as Rashi on the Passuk quotes from Divray Hayamim?

    Is this some type of crazy riddle where you have someone who is one person's wife, mother, and daughter???

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  • A

    Anonymous -14 years ago

    important lessons
    so many important lessons to be learnt from this class.
    Thank you.

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  • J

    Joe -14 years ago

    Looking forward
    As always, looking forward to another classic. Thank you.

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Rabbi YY Jacobson

  • November 30, 2010
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  • 23 Kislev 5771
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  • 2749 views
Dedicated by David and Eda Schottenstein in the loving memory of Alta Shula Swerdlov and in the merit of Yetta Alta Shula, "Aliya," Schottenstein

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