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Laws of Cooking on Shabbos #2

Introduction: 1. Kli Reshon & Kli Sheni 2. Between Solids and Liquids

57 min

Class Summary:

Introduction: 1. Kli Reshon & Kli Sheni 2. Between Solids and Liquids

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  • H

    Heshy -11 years ago

    Awesome Shiur!

    Just wanted to point out that at the 34 minute mark, u said "Kli Rishon walls"...i think u meant to say "Kli Shaini Walls" Unless i misunderstood you.

    Keep them coming!

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  • S

    Sholom -11 years ago

    Thanks for the feedback, Sholom. Very perceptive question. 

    In brief, the answer is that R.Tam, (who says that tata'ah gavar is what gives irui its special status), must also agree l'ch'oirah that the irui even before it strikes a surface is different from the content of a keli rishon. The proof for this is that with regard to a keli rishon we don't say tata'ah gavar (or ila'ah gavar according to Rav), The k.r. always cooks whatever comes into contact with it. But in irui we do apply tata'ah/ ila'ah.I hope that suffices. 

    We will indeed go into this when b'ez"H we discuss pouring water into cholent to avoid burnt cholent.

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  • S

    sholom -11 years ago

    Loved the shiur.


    If im understanding correctly. You give an example (36.08) to show a practical difference between the 2 ways of looking at the bishul status of iruy/pouring. As you mention (33.03)  these 2 ways are only relevant to R’Yitzchok and Rabeinu Ta’m who both hold that there is either partial or full bishul when one pours from a kli rishon.

    The example was: Pouring liquid from one kli rishon to another kli rishon. By pouring from the kli rishon into a kli rishon, the relevant question now is; is the person elevating the staus of the iruy, perhaps it goes down in status when being poured out of the 1st kli rishon and therefore it is now being elevated to a kli rishon status when being poured in the 2nd kli rishon. In this case would one be violating a transgression? (You said you will delve in this question in future shiurim).

    Question. According to what was explained in the shiur, it seems that both Rabeinu Yitzchok and Rabeinu Ta’m would hold that iruy has the status of a kli rishon until it hits a surface. Their practical difference in oppinion would only be once the liquid hits a surface, only then do they argue as to whether it will partially cook or be considered a full bishul.

    If that is correct, then the above mentioned example of iruy- possibly going down in status (before elevating again)- would only be relevant acc to the oppinion of the Rashba'm who holds that when pouring the liquid it goes down in status and therefore does not cook at all. Would that be a trangsression. Whereas according to R'I and R'T the iruy will remain a kli rishon when being poured into another kli rishon and whichever way you look at iruy, in this scenario there would be no transgression according to R’I and R’T?    

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  • Y

    Yaakov -11 years ago

    I enjoyed your Chassidic insight for the kli reshon and kli sheni. Is there a source for that? You quoted Likutei Torah and it is in the curriculum about having a fire in serving G-d. But how about the concept of the "keli" also being on the fire, the methods of communication, also heated by the fire of Torah? Any source?

    Also, in one of your Ayin Beis classes, you stated (I think) that atzelus is like kli reshin and briah is like kli sheni. in the former, the keli is is also divine, it is G-d's "kelim," "eehoo vegarmohee chad," where in beirah, the second world, the content is tranffered into new kelim.

    I was wondering why you did not say that in this shuir about kli reshon and sheni? And also, was there a source for that interesting comparison between Atzelus and kli reshon etc?

    Thanks for answering my questions.

    On another note, I once heard that by transfering an item into a kli sheni where the walls are cool, it autmotically gets lowered two degrees. Is that the case?

    And even if yes, is that enough of a difference that it is not called "cooking?"

    Also your explanation seems strange. Just because the walls are cooling off the item, it does not change the fact that the item is getting heated and cooked? Who cares that it is a bit cooler, the bottom line is that RIGHT NOW the item in the kli sheni has ability to heat up and cook that which comes into it?

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    • RLW

      Rabbi L. Wineberg -11 years ago

      Re: Source K'li Rishon etc.
      Thank you for probing questions.

      If I said the same thing in halacha & "ayin beis" shiurim, you'd end up listening to only one shiur.

      Perhaps you're familiar with the Rebbe MaHaRaSh's answer to the fellow who queried him as to why the Rebbe had answered his problem one way and his friend's identical problem another way.

      The issue of the "walls" is exactly what Tosafos's answer seeks to achieve. B'kitzur: When walls are cold, right now the heats dissipates into walls, and is not "focused" on food.

      I don't know of any source for the "2 degree" difference between keli r. and keli sh..

      As to source of comparison between Atzilus being like keli r. and Briah keli sh.: I simply took what Tosafos say about the difference and combined it with what the A.R.said about the difference between Atzilus & Briah.

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  • B

    Berel -11 years ago


    Thanks for the classes. Great.

    However two mistakes:

    1) You said Shabbos p. 38, I think you meant page 40.

    2) You mentioned the mishnah "hamachem shepenahu," i think you meant the mishna afterward, "hakdeirah vehailpas..."

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Levi Wineberg

  • March 3, 2013
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  • 21 Adar 5773
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